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  •  It is hard to put into words (4.00 / 7)

    The outrage/fear: I say fear because make no mistake. . .I have no doubt that these soul-less bastards would torture dosmetic persons if it suited their needs.  Perhaps they feel a little less conflicted about torturing and killing "brown people"--after all our history is rife with examples--but I think they would do the same to any US citizen given the right motivation, like say voting the wrong way.  

    The outrage part is that slightly over half of us voted for these morally bankrupt individuals.  Sure you can say there was little coverage by the SCLM, and you would be right.  I contend that anyone paying at least as much attention as paid to Marth Stewart, Scott Peterson, etc. would have read about at least the suggestion that this was/is happening.

    Part of what I feel is embarassment, for lack of a better word.  My wife and I would love to travel in Europe.  How much longer will the rest of the world tolerate the arrogance and criminality of our government before painting us all with the same brush?

    Finally, there is the horror and disbelief.  Didn't we all grow up in the US being taught that we fought against tyranny and torture?  That our fathers and grandfathers went to war to prevent this from happening?  It was either all a big lie or we have made a very wrong turn somewhere in the last generation.  I just cannot get my head around what it must take (or lack) for an individual to torture another human being.

    "It's been headed this way since the World began, when a vicious creature made the jump from Monkey to Man."--Elvis Costello

    by BigOkie on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:20:33 AM PDT

    •  Well (none / 0)

      Didn't we all grow up in the US being taught that we fought against tyranny and torture?  That our fathers and grandfathers went to war to prevent this from happening?  It was either all a big lie or we have made a very wrong turn somewhere in the last generation.  I just cannot get my head around what it must take (or lack) for an individual to torture another human being.

      Only part of the U.S. believes this.  Others believe that the descriptions of war in the Bible set the standards for today.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

      by ohwilleke on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:30:21 AM PDT

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    •  Do you think (none / 0)

      that this kind of thing has been going on for years and under different administrations?  

      I'm not promoting this idea (because I don't know), but I wonder if anyone knows if outsourcing torture has been a longtime practice?  

      NetrootNews coming soon!

      by ksh01 on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:33:20 AM PDT

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    •  We are all torturers. (none / 1)

      Ever read "Hitler's Willing Executioners"? We are all murderers and torturers. But very few of us have had that switch thrown inside of us. Torturers say that they are trained to do it by being tortured themselves.

      Corruption is what keeps us safe and warm. Corruption is why we win. -Syriana

      by CarbonFiberBoy on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:38:20 AM PDT

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    •  Well put! Thank you, Big (n/t) (none / 0)

      Nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus... (Now is the time to beat the earth with unfettered foot...)

      by a2jean on Tue Dec 28, 2004 at 08:43:16 AM PDT

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    •  They did it throughout the 80s (4.00 / 4)

      That is, the US armed and supported "irregular" forces such as the contras fighting against the populist government of Nicaragua. These people were trained (yes, trained by the CIA) to torture and kill educators and health workers in the countryside so as to destroy the benefits the Sandinistas were bringing to the peasants. A friend of mine found the "comic book" described here used to train the proxy US forces.

      And yes, this makes me afraid. What they will do through proxies, they will do here if they feel their hold on power slipping. I have actually been impressed and heartened by the number of brave professionals in the military, the JAG offices, various policy departments, who have been willing to expose the ongoing destruction of the rule of law under our current leaders.

    •  KUBARK (none / 1)

      is the name of the CIA program from the 60s, 70s, 80s - we've always had this double standard, one nice lovely set of "ideals" that we use to make ourselves feel smugly better than all those third world dictators and people in the old days, and then the real set of ideals that we lived by, the Good Germans among us (which is most of us) turning a blind eye to the fact that we were training and paying for those torturing dictators, so long as they claimed to be "supporting democracy."

      Do you know about the CIA's involvement in Greece? In Indonesia? In Iran? Read, also, about SAVIK - the Shah's secret police were just as bad as the KGB. Why do you think we were hated and there was a revolution there? Because they're irrational Arabs?

      Google and read up on what we have been tolerating all these years. Also, read about Emma Goldman being beaten and molested in jail, after McKinley was assassinated and this was used as a crackdown on US dissidents, a hundred years ago - this is nothing new.  Negroponte is now turning a blind eye to evils committed by our puppets in Baghdad just as he did in Central America. We made Oliver North a national hero, and demonized the Senators who tried to make an accounting for Iran-Contra.

      We reap what we have sown. And nobody wants to hear it - you'd all still rather believe that we were always the noble, generous, altruistic saints of the world, and all those people around the world who resent America are just jealous or evil.

      "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

      by bellatrys on Wed Dec 29, 2004 at 03:17:04 AM PDT

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